Turtle Questions

[Ed]

Yo Creedo

I have a couple of questions about turtle:

1. Is your turtle guide post-SS weight change? (I heard there was a SS wind change recently for turtle)

2. What exactly is the relationship between turtle and armor? The 70 BJSL for armor doesn't work so well for turtle, ie. it doesn't hit at all (I think it lands short?)

Thanks!
EdMan218

[n00b4LiFeSr]

Turtle's SS was changed only after it opens up...so his timebomb angles are accurate...however the skybomb part is kinda sketchy...me and CreeDo were testing the SS a couple of days ago and we were getting some interesting results...such as the maximum skybomb distance being angle 72 (full)...and we got the exact places for angles 89-83...however we are still working on the others.

wait a couple of weeks and we (he) might come out with something new

on his guide...I see he has the right angles...but some of the power measures are off...you can still use his angles for up to half screen...but I *think* that the other ones are a bit off.

[CreeDo]

yeah, my info is post-weight change.

It's not perfect yet. For now, these are some numbers you can be sure of (SS shots I try all the time and hit with):

85, 3.7 = a hair past 1/3 screen. Just 10-15 pixels.

83, 3.7 = 15 pixels short of half screen (so if the enemy's at half screen just walk a bit to hit them)

80, 3.75 = about 20 pixels past 2/3 screen

76, 3.93 = 1 screen. Maybe a few pixels short.

72 full = 1.4 screen, maximum distance without helping wind.

2. Max's bjsl numbers for turtle and armor are indeed wrong, but probably this is because he uses chinese information, and chinese players measure 1 screen differently (something like from the green angle indicator to the enemy's, so 1 screen in china is measured where both mobiles are fully on the screen, not half-on half-off).

Correct 70 info should be:
(in "our" screen distances)
1/4: 1.50
1/2: 2.12
3/4: 2.60
1.0: 3.00
1.25: 3.35
1.5: 3.67
1.75: 3.97

Turtle and armor are really and truly EXACTLY the same weight, except for the SS.

[Ed]

Hmmm

So 1 screen 0 wind is 76 3.93 and not 75 3.77?
I think your guide says 75 3.77

As for the banpao I regularly use the formula with 3.1 around 1 screen. Actually, I use 3.1 almost all of the time and hit. 70 3.0 DEFINATELY doesn't hit with mobiles half and half on/off the screen full.

So maybe 2.4 method for armor/turtle and 3.0 method should be changed to 2.5 and 3.1 methods.

Also, are you interested in an Ice guide? The ones on your site have crappy formulas and inaccurate windcharts. I could come up with something based on Remark's 70BJSL chart if you want (btw, awsome chart remark).

[Ed]

Oh, by the way, what are the correct powers for turtle skybomb? I was under the impression its ~3.7 to 3.8 from 0 to 1 screen. (because in your replay you used 3.93 power)

[CreeDo]

yeah, my skybomb info is wrong in the guide. The new info is from very recent tests. I figured out that I had been using old power levels, but new power levels are needed to match the new angles.

3.67-3.7 is fine anywhere up to half screen.
Around 3/4 screen use 3.8.
Around 1 screen use 3.9 (a hair over).

For banpao, 3.0 definitely IS one screen. I've tested and used it for a long time. I dunno how your results are different. You can even double check it with the magic formula - creedo.gbgl-hq.com/creedo_magic_formula.php

For 2.4, it's 2.4 bars for closer shots and 2.5 for far shots. This formula is so old and so well-known that I don't know why you'd even argue about it. Come to think of it, so is banpao. It's been called the 2.4 formula since probably before you started playing gunbound. This guide, one of the oldest out there, is something I downloaded halfway through 2001 - creedo.gbgl-hq.com/cbchui.htm .

Using the 2.4 formula, 70 is the 2/3 screen shot and uses 2.45 bars (2.45 rather than 2.4 because you must add a bit of power near this distance).

70, 2.45 is 2/3rds of the distance to 1 screen.

Another way of saying that is 1 screen is 1.5 * the distance that 70, 2.45 travels.

sqrt(1.5) = 1.2247

Multiply that by the original power 2.45.

Answer is 3.00062. This proves banpao is 3.0 as long as the original power of 2.45 is accurate. Even if it's off and you try the math with 2.5 bars instead of 2.45, the answer is 3.06, never 3.1... but I encourage you to test this stuff yourself and screenshot when you see damage from your shot. If your screenshot shows 3.1 I'll eat my monitor.

============

Also, are you interested in an Ice guide? The ones on your site have crappy formulas and inaccurate windcharts. I could come up with something based on Remark's 70BJSL chart if you want (btw, awsome chart remark).

I dunno, I'm thinking 'no thanks'. So far all you've shown me is that you're the kind of guy who will trash other people's work and defend your own stuff even when you info is wrong and theirs isn't. The windchart on badboy's ice guide is one I made myself for 2.4 shooting. It's not good outside of 2.4 but it does work with that formula because it's more or less based around angle 70. Compare it with any other 70 chart and you'll find we come up with the same numbers. The one in mezz's guide is meant to be vague, he's a bit more into feel. Both guides have accurate 0 wind numbers, except for mezz's angle 50 1 screen info being off by .1 or so.

Besides, guides are so much more than just a windchart - mezz's covers lots of important stuff for ice besides raw formula info. So I don't know where you get off calling them crappy. You're talking about basing your (entire?) guide around someone else's windchart. When you make a guide that's as detailed as mezz's, with formulas and charts that are more correct than badboy's, I'll put up whatever you write. If you just rehash remark's windchart and throw in some general ice tips, nothx.

[Ed]

Well, I certainly didn't mean to come off as hateful. I've just read a lot of the Ice stuff around, and they don't really tell you how to hit accurately when the wind is anything but 0 (except Remark .

I feel like the main reason people guides (at least me) is to learn how to actually play a bot well. I completely agree that the other guides (Mezz's, etc) are excellent introductions to Ice in general, and I think they're a good read to understanding how Ice and his shots work, but they're more knowledge based and don't have as deep of an in-game application as I hoped. (For example, I think your Turtle guide is pretty comprehensive, 0 wind powers and windcharts, etc)

Anyways, I wasn't trying to bash the other guides, as I'm sure their writers have much more experience and are much better players than me, but I was just pointing out that there's a lack of a definate way to actually hit people in them.

Back on discussion about the banpao thing, do you think it might be something with my screen? I've tried several times to hit full screen with 70 3.0 and it's always come up about a mobile short. Perhaps it's something with my display? I will definately take a screenshot next time I shoot 0 wind 70 full screen and maybe you can determine what I'm doing wrong.

Lastly, just to make sure, skybomb SS is ~3.67 - 3.9 from 0 to 1 screen? Can I extend this to 4.0 ~ 1.5 screen?

[Ed]

Okay, I have three or four screenshots to share:

1. 70 3.0 (a pixel or two below 3.0) hitting well short of 1SD

2. 70 3.1 hitting 1SD

3. 75 2.5 hitting halfscreen

Let me know how I should get these pics to you (email?)

Ed

[CreeDo]

About the guides, don't sweat it. I tend to jump on anyone who says guides suck, but I agree that these guides don't cover very advanced ways to make accurate shots.

And yes, skybomb is 3.67 to 3.9 for 1 screen. Your maximum distance shot (to get decent damage over 400) is about 50 pixels past 1 and 1/3 screen (so about 1.4 screens) using 72 full power. A friend of mine swears that you can get longer distances (even 2 screens) using upward wind, and trying to get the balls to open at an angle. But he has yet to prove this and I have a hard time believing it without seeing.

About your images... upload them to imageshack, imageshack.us/

there are only one thing I can think of to explain it -
you measure from tip if your bot's cannon to 1 SD maybe? Or from the end of his red aimer line? It's supposed to be from your bot is half-on half-off the edge of the screen, and the hole from the shot will also be half-on half-off the opposite edge.

Here's a screenshot of 70 3bar just before impact, and the hole it makes after.
creedo.gbgl-hq.com/703bar.jpg
creedo.gbgl-hq.com/703barhole.jpg

[CreeDo]

Oops. After having my angle 60 numbers corrected in another forum I decided to double check everything. The banpao numbers are fine, but some of my 2.4 numbers are wrong (and have been for a while).

Power levels for 2.4 are:
under 2/3 screen = 2.4
2/3 screen to around angle 65 = 2.45
65-62 = 2.5
61, 60 = 2.55

So my 1 screen number was .05 off (actually .06) and I'll need to fix my guides.

[Ed]

img386.imageshack.us/my.php?image=18ir1.png

This one has 70 3.1 hitting pretty much exactly at 1SD. My body is a little too off the screen, but so is the shot hole.

img374.imageshack.us/my.php?image=29ig.png

This one has 70 3.0 (as you can see, I just BARELY missed 3.0) hitting well in front of 1SD


img386.imageshack.us/my.php?image=60si.png

This one looks like 70 3.05 missing just short of 1SD

img359.imageshack.us/my.php?image=30zx.png

In this one, 75 2.5 is hitting 1/2 SD. Is this 2.5 Creedo? It looks like it to me. And is that 1/2 SD? It also looks like it to me.


Note on the SS:

So is there any way to measure SS distance now? It seems like the SD is 14 parts? 1/2 SD at 83 3.7 and 1 SD at 76 3.9? If I divide my screen into 14 parts (-.-) that should give me a good SS null wind?

[CreeDo]

ok, I already msged you on gunbound but for the benefit of the rest of the world:

The problem was that he's using the new (blue) interface. The power bar marks on that
interface are all screwed up. The first mark is 10 pixels short (only 90 pixels from the start of the bar) so what looks like 1.0 power on there is really .9 bars. The last mark is 10 pixels long, so it's 110 pixels from the end of the bar. What looks like 3.1 bars is really just 3.0. Lame eh?

I encourage everyone who wants to be accurate and pro to just stick with the old interface. I have lots of measuring tricks using that interface, and you can always trust your power marks.

[Ed]

What's the best way to measure half screen using the other interface? Right now, I'm using the middle of the WindDial as half screen.

[Ed]

Now I remember why I use that interface...

1. You can see what angle you shot last

2. You can see the divisions for 1-4 bar on top of the red power

3. The winddial is a much better marker for 1/2 SD than the power bar.

Ugh...Guess ill just tough it out with a crappy bar-divider

When you get new skybomb information, please let me know

[Ed]

Creedo, I'm here to bother you again. ;D

Nice updated skybomb info, by the way.

Is Mishi's windcharts for power/angle adjustment for skybomb still accurate for the new numbers? Ie. 14 part screen + Mishi = hit?

Also, does something strange happen when skybomb SS goes > and then <? Ie. Backshoot SS or strong against wind where the SS goes past them and comes back. How should I calculate power? The balls seem to come down funny (not in a line)

[CreeDo]

Ed said:

Is Mishi's windcharts for power/angle adjustment for skybomb still accurate for the new numbers? Ie. 14 part screen + Mishi = hit?

It's not perfect. It's pretty good in terms of how much power to add or subtract, but the angle adjustment is a little off. It's very close still.

Ed said:

Also, does something strange happen when skybomb SS goes > and then <? Ie. Backshoot SS or strong against wind where the SS goes past them and comes back. How should I calculate power? The balls seem to come down funny (not in a line)

For this kind of shot, the balls must arrive at the enemy the same way they would with moderate tailwind, i.e. slanting a bit like --> \
The goal is sort of to get the balls to be lined up at the same angle as the shot is approaching from, so if it's coming down at a 70 degree angle, you want the balls to sort of be at a 70 degree slant. I think that's right. It might not be.

There are several things to keep in mind when backshooting:

1. Usually it's a close shot which means the basic power level is low. Mostly I try backshots to hit an enemy who is only 3-5 angles away from me, which means a basic power of 3.7

2. The shot spends a long time fighting the wind which slows it down and makes it peak lower, so like any opposite wind shot you must add a bit of power. But it's not a ton of power because for at least a fraction of the time, the shot is acting like it has tailwind. I might add a max of .1

3. In addition, when a shot is flying at the enemy with tailwind and you're going to intentionally try for a slanted SS, the goal is NOT to find the perfect power for the shot to open at its peak. That would make the shot fall in a nice vertical line. The vertical line is great for 1/2 or even 3/4 screen, but for tailwind, long shots, and backshots... you need the diagonal line. To intentionally make the shot go diagonal a bit, you add a little power. Not much, just like... .05 or .07 or something. So maybe 2.85 bars is a nice power.

4. So... you're adding power cuz it's opposite wind. You're adding power cuz you want a diagonal line. And generally, your opposite wind angle change is largest when you are shooting yourself (i.e. the tk angle) or backshooting. Combine all of these things together, and the result is that the shot tends to fly quite a bit further than you expect. You must lower at least 1 more angle from what the chart tells you for some backshots.

Like if the chart says .53, you might think to adjust 13 angles in 24 wind. So an enemy who is 3 angles away from you would require a backshot of 90 (-13 to tk) +3 for distance = 80. But 80 would fly past that enemy for sure, you'd need 1 angle less. On paper, .53 is actually less than 13 so you'd expect 13 adjustment to land a bit in front of you. But in reality it flies behind you by almost a full angle. The .53 number is an 'average' for all the skybomb angles you'd use within 1 screen. Backshots are at one extreme end of that average. Past 1 SD would be the other end.
=========
So what I'm saying is you pretty much should do 1 angle less than what the windchart says, and .15 bars more power maybe.


About new divider vs old divider - all of those advantages are nice, and I wish I had them, but I promise you... if you want to be a pro player, having accurate power bars is more useful and important than all of those other things combined. Plus, if you're desperate for your last angle or to see your power or whatever, you can temporarily switch and then switch back. But really, having to deal with that 10 pixel difference around the third bar is unacceptible, because so much of your shooting will be very near that marker. I've decided to not help anyone with power issues if they use the blue interface, because they're shooting themselves in the foot. I'll be glad to help with other stuff. And I can confirm the blue interface has a nicer half screen but I've gotten very very used to use half-of-your-first-dual on the brown one and it's not an issue anymore.

[Ed]

Is it just me...or is it harder to control the power slice on the old interface? I can't seem to hit my marker as often. Also, if you have some free time, could you link me to your 30/20 parts charts? Just like where the parts actually are on the old interface. Thanks,
Ed

[turtle noob]

i have something to share... i dunno if its me or its just luck, but when i use skybomb, i use the usual ultra high angle formula landamarks, and the angle i got i lower it 2 angles and use like 3.6 bars(close) to 3.9 bars(far), and it usualli lands perfectly like 20-50 pix after the expected landmark, maybe u can chek it out?

[wei2azn4u321]

Am I the onli one that has trouble with creedo's timebomb turtle ss?

[wei2azn4u321]

Hey Creedo, could you have a timebomb windchart like mishinge's skybomb wind chart? Sometimes its confusing to calculate the in-between wind factors and powerfactors, thanks

[CreeDo]

Skybombs are about 3 angles off from ultra high angle at 1 screen, but the difference up close is smaller and the difference far away is larger.

[bigfatnerd]

GOD BLESS CREEDO

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She said: It was his last name. his is the middle of the strange, we all understand. People of the Shi Dilin high school willing to bear some form of arrogance, even of several forms arrogance also encouraged Li; arrogant must have taste, style, in order to get people to agree. Are you proud of the things you must let others feel valuable - and show you arrogant style, have charm. Jenny was born not eloquent enough. Gap said the mother Pride is not by choice, but forced by circumstances, not otherwise. Shi Dilin high school the district has always been in love arrogant, but Jenny is actually his illegitimate son proud! Such a Michael Kors Outlet Store thing, it may not be shameful, but at least her how much the pretend to be a little bit embarrassed!The problem is that Jenny is not only Gap proud to get his own way is a very, very proud. This style, in those days the world have never seen, there have to wait; etc.
Of course, her parents and brother long ago expected it; they are not surprised. Jenny had long ago do not want to to prove himself Yujiebingqing to them. She like to meet a ghost, parents Kobold Kong mansion spacious hallway loitering. Her poised tight the whole family had to make her own way. Jenny selfishness is very happy, but even though she is likely all thoughts are on this child who will be born, the strange thing is, she never considered to give him to take Louis Vuitton Purses the name. ow do you say, Jenny gave birth to nine-pound boy, my mind no name. Jenny's mother asked her that say what name, but Jane has just finished production sedated; she was not co-operative. ap.
Early spring, and out of the health center, a large number of boys, Jane can not remember everyone - not to mention familiar to speculate on their fetishes. There is time for the first day of the sun, the ground snow have not melted, and ran swimming fool. There are lingering winter cold invasion, resistance was finally lost the last batch of victims. The last batch of sick of winter sports injuries, and spring sports practice, the first batch of wounded. athaway is so live here, Jenny just heard he pushed the man on the fourth floor of the ward bed bell. Hathaway to play lacrosse, hurt his knee ligament;, he is permitted to crutches to walk freely on the two days of plaster, he ran outside in the rain, crutch tip on top of the the Hale building marble escalator slip. Fall and when the other leg is broken. Two legs on the cast, he can only bigger and shaped flat, the joints palm, pinching his beloved hockey stick.

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